31.7.07

Gambling with the kids

Russell came home from youth on Wednesday night really excited. He had organised a night where the kids could come up with an outreach night to their friends, and they have to organise it all themselves (delegation…right on!).

They had a brainstorming session where they all came up with different ideas of what they could do. After throwing a heap up on the board they decided to go with a casino night.

Russell was encouraged as it seemed like the first time the kids were really excited about something. They were all looking forward to it and planning how things would be done, and it was a vibe that we have rarely seen at youth.

They decided each kid would pay a $2 entry which would give them a certain amount of chips that they could use for the duration of the night. The money would go towards the Youth’s sponsor child, Nancy, and you could only buy one round of tips…once their gone, that’s it.

Russell came home all excited and enthused…until he spoke to me. My instant reaction was to irk up and say a straight out ‘no’. ‘You’re the leader, you need to set guidelines and not let the kids do just whatever they feel like’.

We then had a long conversation about the ‘pro’s and con’s’ of the night. In the end, my view was coming from the fact that the culture associated with the word ‘casino’ is a bad culture/environment and that I didn’t think it is something that the youth want to stand for. And, Russell doesn’t want to just conform because people may get offended.

We then had an hour long discussion at small group last night (This is after our 2hr discussion on Gods Perfection – see below – it was a pretty full on night).

If we give the kids macaroni pasta and not chips, would this validate it? If we only played poker, would that be ok? If we didn’t use the word ‘casino’ would that change the whole perception for people?

I thought last night about the fact that, we as a small group could talk about it and nut-it-out for the next 5 hrs and in the end decide that there is nothing wrong with it, but we don’t have that chance or time to explain our reasoning to parents and their kids. The parents have a 10min space of, ‘Mum, I’m going to a casino night at youth, can I have some money…” and their first thought will be the generalisation of what society associates with casinos. We can’t talk and nut-out with the parents our reasoning like we can in small group. The parents get a small 10min window – and I’m afraid that the instant thought they will have is ‘no’ or ‘this isn’t good’.

For the 2nd time in the night, (at small group) we were discussing our thoughts and opinions. How we could word the night…would that make any difference? Could we change the games or instead of having chips have macaroni noodles? Would that make any difference? Considering this is an outreach night for the kids to bring their friends to, is it ok then?

Russell was starting to feel down about it all. The kids had come up with this night on their own and they were all excited about planning and organising it. Now, he is looking like, he is going to have to go back to them and say, ‘no-can-do’ and crush their spirits. Hopefully, no spirits will be crushed, but we are still a little at a loss as to what to do.

Is having a casino night at youth an absolute no-go? What would be a better alternative? Or is there simply none?

We have discussed the ideas of having a talk at the end of the night about the trappings of gambling and about spending our money wisely. We have discussed having different games, not using the word casino, and of canning the night completely.

This is another one of those issues I am interested to hear peoples thoughts on. I already know what I would say/do, but I want to hear other people’s thoughts. Maybe someone out there has had a similar experience in their ministry. Maybe someone has a brilliant solution!! Give them to me! I want to hear them!

18 comments:

Anonymous said...

hmmmm well well well!


Quite a pandora's box here possibly;)

At Subi we haven't had a 'casino night' per see but we have regularly played poker with the youth. So far we have never paid money to get chips...but we also use proper chips and play just like you would if you actually paid money.

On one hand the idea of encouraging youth to play a game that 'can' cause serious gambling problems seems a little silly, on the other hand, 15 years ago young adult events would never have been held in a pub for the same reasons!

'Personally' i'd feel ok having a 'casino' night. I'd probably not have it as a paying night (so no connection could be made between money and the games) but i'd happily play poker, using poker chips in the process.

One of the problems i think Christian society has had and still has in some area's is we make so many things 'taboo' that, in the process we can actually distort the meaning even further. Rather than redeeming something, we make it taboo...just making it even more alluring!

Think about drinking. Alcoholism IS a problem within society. Generations past just said 'don't drink'. Nowadays it is ok to drink, just not to excess. Drinking is not a sin, getting drunk is. In my mind playing poker is not a sin but getting into a gambling habit is. You don't become an alcoholic after one drink, you won't become a gambler after one game:)

Some pretty random thoughts without any real sense to order...hope it helps!

bek said...

Thanks for those thoughts...they are helpful!

We have played poker with the kids, without money and they really enjoyed it.

The kids are wanting to charge so that they can give the money to the youth's sponsor child. Do you think this is a legit reason?

Sarah said...

I reckon it's a legit reason. It's kinda the same with raffles. You buy a ticket and hope to win the prize but even if you don't the organisation that's fundraising is usually a charity so the money's going to a worthy cause.

fletchboy said...

Just a sec. Let me get out my Nave's Topical Bible. There. OK. C--- Ca--- Cas.... HMPH! It is not there! :-)

I have done some thinking about it, and I have come to this. In Japan, there is a pervasive form of gambling -- it is called Pachinko -- that looks a bit like Pinball to the outside observer. It is extremely addictive and does great damage to society and families. You don't win money. You win steel balls, like ball bearings. You then take those ball bearings and exchange them for valuable prizes. Hmmm....gambling.

What REALLY bugs us is that the shopping malls will have a gaming centre -- aimed at VERY young children -- and you win tickets that you take to a desk and exchange for.....slightly valuable prizes. It teaches kids to mimic a damaging habit that adults get addicted to. (Should I mention that I also smoked "Candy Cigarettes" as a child? hehehe ...but I won't buy them for MY kids!)

Rather than looking for a Biblical injunction against casinos, or whether it is outright damaging to play poker in youth group, maybe the question is, do we want to mimic an aspect of adult life that is damaging to society? I would most likely come down on the negative side of that question, so I guess that would answer it for me. But I doubt you could make a hard case against it from Scripture.

Hmmm....raffles? Could it be that raffles are a more benign form of gambling and we forgive it because, "it's for a good cause"? That is a whole 'nuther question. ;-)

backyardmissionary said...

There are a few issues there - not the least being the parent's opinions!

If you can get past them then I reckon you have the potential for a great learning experience.

Quite seriously. If you can simulate a casino where people predominantly lose their cash then you may teach them a valuable lesson early in life. It'd also be good to reflect on what it feels like to win and how addictions start.

I would probably go the whole hog, but be ready to explain it to parents that way - cause conservative Christian folks won't like it...

bek said...

Oh course you would say that!

But is that an environment and culture that the youth want to be endorsing? whether we do a talk about the traps and addictions of gambling or not?

Anonymous said...

Hi guys another good topic bek :)

It seems to me that responsible gambling and card playing coupled with a talk or lesson could hardly be construed as endorsing anything other than good fun and sensible and responsible education.

I personally think teaching people responsibility is far better than forced abstinence.

bek said...

That is a very good point pete! Thanks for that!

fletchboy said...

Pete's comment about "responsible gambling" set me to thinking. Is gambling intrinsically wrong or is it ONLY the addiction that is problematic? I have some thoughts, but I want to hear some others first before I "show you my cards". (To use a gaming analogy...grin)

bek said...

I have a friend who gambles 'responsibly'. He only ever takes $20 with him and never takes or withdraws more.

He also knows when to stop.

I wouldnt say he has an addiction, since he only goes once in a blue moon when he is having a 'boys arvo' or whatever.

backyardmissionary said...

No no!

I wouldn't just say that :)

I really believe you have in front of you a golden learning opportunity free from the perils of 'real casino' world. Consider it a simulation activity.

Simulate 99% of people losing and ask them how they feel. Ask the winner how addictive the winning urge is.

Make it as realistic as possible and then get them to reflect on it. Might be a bit of a challenge, but I think you will do some valuable learning with them!

Careful of the parents though...

Anonymous said...

Can't wait fletch ;)

I also go to the casino occassionally, probly once every 2 years with the guys for some fun. I set myself a limit (usually like $50) and stick to it. I personally hate throwing money away.

I feel that if we educate people and teach them responsibility, they are less likely to fall victim to these sorts of things. Gambling can be good fun, but it goes to another level when you are putting faith in it to change your situation or life.

Problem gambling is a symptom of much deeper issues. Same as problem drinking and any other sort of addiction.

Michael Norman said...

Its funny that most of us dont actually have a problem with casino's including roulette, poker etc. myself included.
The issue is actually not what your doing, its how its perceived what your doing.
Theres somethings I wouldnt do without giving parents/leaders a heads up regardless of the benefits (to which I see many), this is one of them... Not because of what your doing but because of what your perceived to be doing.
When parents/leaders have a heads up they can shutdown any gossip/complaints as soon as they start.
My 2c.
M.

bek said...

c'mon greg...show us your cards...show us!!

Gareth Williams said...

If you decide to go ahead is it possible to meet with soem parents and explain your reasoning and what you aim to teach the kids.
If the point is more than just entertainment then having a strategy of how you've thought through all the possibilities could be good for the parents. It shows it's not some "crazy youth thing".

Also, the fact that the kids themselves came up with the idea says something. Are they playing poker already? With the current popularity of it they may already be doing so. What does it say about the kids and what they're exposed to?

Hope this helps. But I've had many dealings with parents. First rule- when it comes to their kids, parents are the most irrational beings on the planet!!!!!! (Rants of a frustrated ex youth pastor).

bek said...

We actually play poker with the kids.

We have taken poker down to state youth games the last 2 yrs and the guys love it!

fletchboy said...

Hey Gareth, my first rule of youth ministry, was always, "When I can't figure out what PLANET these kids are coming from...check out their parents. It is in the DNA!" :-)

fletchboy said...

OK, Bek. Don't look for any excellent pearls of wisdom here, but just a couple of random thoughts...

I feel like there are certain principles by which this world was designed to function. One principle is "No work, no eat." You see in the Garden, in the beginning, we didn't have to work. The curse said, "You will earn a living by the sweat of hard work." I don't see any "shortcut" clauses.

I guess I can throw away money by going to the driving range, and Pete (or anybody else) can throw away money by going to the casino and there isn't much difference. However, if you go to the casino with any inkling of hope that you might "hit it big" then I reckon you're scraping against the guardrails of "No work, No eat."

I won't be "legalistic" about this, but I reckon we've got to seek to live our lives in harmony with the principles that God established in the world. I know my weakness and the evil that lies just below the surface in my life, so I will err on the side of safety, rather than flirting with life on the edge. You are you, and I am me. (that isn't directed at anybody in particular...just "you" -- grin) We each have to figure out how to walk the path that is set before us. Let's just commit together to walk it to honour HIM! ;-) That's the bottom line, I reckon.