Had a couple of really interesting discussions at our small group last night. One of them was about God’s perfection. The differences in our point of views on God and on our understanding of perfection. The other was on whether it is considered ‘right’ or ‘ok’ to have a casino night at youth for outreach.
They were both very interesting discussions…some people getting fired up…others getting defensive…it was very interesting.
Usually I jump right on in and love to ‘get my hands dirty’ and really dig and have a go at trying to nut things out. This time though I tried to just sit back and watch, and listen (at least I think I did). It was interesting to see different people’s reactions. Ways that people would get uncomfortable and defensive. We all need shaking every now and then, and I guess some people don’t like it. I like to be challenged on my belief’s, it usually gives me more ground for what I believe and only strengthens me. Some people though, these discussions can be very detrimental to their faith. Some people thrive on it, some it can shake them too much and push them down a different path.
We as Christians can’t always have the attitude of ‘It’s in the Bible and that’s it.’ Russell made a good comment about seeing something that people are doing that is good and true and right, and meeting them there and getting along side of them. Then pointing out that this, what you’re doing, is good and true and it is what God intended. That way your not walking up to someone saying, yeah, what you’re doing is great, but you need to do it this way and do it for God. It shows no care in the situation and it more than likely pushes people away rather than bringing them closer.
I diverge…
I guess I was just wondering what other people’s opinions are about God’s perfection.
Does he have flaws, weaknesses, vulnerablilities, did Jesus ‘sin’?
Is this foundational to any Christian faith? Or does it not matter, as long as you believe in God, you’ll get to heaven, won't you?
I’m just interested to peoples views…feel free to comment Pete ;) I like the way you think and challenge us :)
Oh, and I’ll post about the whole casino thing soon :)
27.7.07
Perfectly Flawless?
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24 comments:
Jesus was certainly tempted as we are but if sinned then there's no way he can save us and we're all in deep poo.
....erm....Ahem....uhh....I think I might fall pretty close to the "It's in the Bible and THAT'S IT!" camp...at least when it comes to a discussion of the nature of God and the person of Christ. What other authority do we have?
You see opinions are like noses. Everybody has one, but they are all different. Oh yeah...and you can pick your opinions, but you can't pick your friend's opinions. See...isn't that JUST like noses?!
The book of Hebrews says that Jesus was tempted in every way, just like we are, "yet without sin". So that one is settled for me. That is actually a MAJOR theme for me, because it is a major theme of the New Testament. Jesus lived like he is asking us to live, and he showed us that, by living in obedience to scripture (YES, he did that.) and living in the power of the Holy Spirit (YES, he did that too.) we are able to live the life that he asks us to live. We won't be perfect because we have a propensity to "get it all wrong" that he didn't have when he started out.
I may comment further later, but for now, just let me say -- NO, Dodgy Pete, you CAN'T pick my nose....that would be against my previously stated principle. You can pick yours....as long as nobody is looking. :-p
Can't wait to say what the Bible has to say about Casinos! (ahem...cough....are they IN there anywhere??)
Greg
Do you think God/Jesus has vulnerabilites or weaknesses?
Why didnt he make us to be humans that make the right/good choice everytime?
Do you think that Jesus worried? If so, is that considered a sin?
Oh...one more thought. If God is flawed, how do I choose between this God and all the other flawed "gods" out there? It is then up to me to figure out which flawed God I prefer. Right? Come on Dodgy Pete, I'm dying to hear your perpsective!
But you cant pounce on him! There will be no pouncing on this blog!!
AND I dont want everyone to get caught up in the whole 'im right your wrong, believe my way' alrighty....
just laying down some ground rules :)
Fairy nuff.
As long as everybody understands that I'm right, I won't have to tell them when they're wrong! :-p
Just kidding. Me? Pounce on Mr. Pete? No way! ...tho I must admit that Pounce on Pete WOULD make a good Dr. Seuss book!
Hi guys,
sorry it's taken me so long to reply given thst i kinda started this :). Now my opinions... which by no means are correct just my thoughts.
I don't think Jesus was perfect. It may seem a bit out there but I'll hopefully explain that my views ain't that far off.
Jesus wasn't perfect. People aren't perfect, we are flawed and make mistakes. One of the beauties of Jesus' life for me is that he became man and lived amoung us. He was flawed like the rest of us and felt fear, worry, anger, happiness, etc, etc. He became one of us.
However, that doesn't mean Jesus sinned. Jesus didn't want to die on the cross, or be tortured and humiliated. He asked for God to take the cup from him. He didn't sin, that is he didn't put his will above Gods.
So I don't beleive Jesus was Flawless, that is he's not perfect. He didn't sin, but he could make mistakes.
If my Jesus was perfect, i.e. God made him flawless, then it kind of defeats the purpose for me. It wouldn't be that inspirational to me that he hadn't sinned because if God had made me perfect I wouldn't sin either!
My Jesus was flawed but still put his Fathers will above his own. That's inspirational and makes him the worthy role model he is.
I don't think this should rock peoples faith, or hopefully doesn't. In fact many people would look at my view and say that Jesus was actually the perfect human. It really depends on your definition of perfection.
However you feel I think it's pretty important to think about it and question and assess what you believe.
Hope that's clear :) (as mud!)
Dodgy Pete, you said Jesus was flawed because he felt happy, sad angry, afraid etc like the rest of us. Why do emotions make us flawed? God has emotions. Before the flood in Genesis, he was grieved that he had made man on the earth due to man's wickedness. God gets angry but unlike us his anger does not cause him to sin and his anger is just. He gets pretty happy when one sinner repents and there's a big party going on in heaven. I wouldn't want to serve a God that had no feelings at all.
I guess I think of being perfect as not sinning and if Jesus didn't sin then he seems pretty perfect to me. And I'm glad he is because then he can save me and I see him more than just a role model.
I hope I got the gist of what you were saying :)
I've been doing more pondering during the night...
I guess many people could look at Jesus praying in the Garden of Gethsemane before his crucifixion, asking if the cup could be taken from him and say this shows Jesus was flawed because he was afraid. He was not only fully God but also fully man as well and had to deal with all the temptations that we deal with. Some people say that is Jesus is God then being nailed to a cross wouldn't matter because it can't hurt him. But since he's fully man as well then yes he CAN feel everything and it does hurt him. So of course he wouldn't want to go through that if there was any other way. But as Dodgy Pete said, he chose to do the will of his Father.
The more I think about Jesus, the more grateful I am that he isn't some remote God but a God who has walked in human flesh and can identify with our pain. Yet, unlike us, he didn't sin.
Bek, I often wonder too why God didn't make us perfect Why did he create us yet know we were going to rebel against him all along? I guess God didn't want to create puppets, he chose to give us free will so that we would WANT to serve him and not just do so under compulsion.
Interesting topic....
Hey Sarah,
congrats on the engagement ;)
I don't think that Jesus was flawed just because of his having emotions. For me it is intrisic in the statement he bacame flesh and dwelt amoung us. You could say Jesus was perfectly human, but I believe that this is an incorrect use of the word perfect, i.e. meaning flawless.
I am interested now about the notion of Jesus being fully God and fully man. Is there biblical support for this idea? I'm not trying to dispute Jesus being the Son of God, but for example how could God forsake Jesus if Jesus were fully God?
:) more of my thoughts.
Hey guys. Interesting discussion! :-)
Pete, I guess I am intrigued by your meaning of "flawed" when it relates to Jesus. I am still not clear exactly what "flawed" means in this case. Can you clarify the difference between "flawed" and "perfect" and "sinless" in your use of the words? I think it will help keep the discussion on the same page. :-)
Good question Fletch :)
If something or someone is flawed it/they contain a blemish or defect.
If something is perfect it is flawless. The use of the word perfect should usually be qualified, that is if you copy a picture it could be a "perfect reproduction", or a flawless copy.
If someone is sinless they have not transgressed the will of God (there are many definitions but I think this is a good generalisation - but I'm happy to be corrected).
Was Jesus perfect? I don't think so. Was he a perfect sacrifice. Yes. Was he sinless. He must have been. It's really semantics but I think it's important to understand what people mean.
:)
Dictionary meaning of perfect:
complete, entire; faultless, excellent; exact
Is this what you mean Dodgy Pete?
Yup that's it.
I think it's important that we don't assume everyone knows what we mean when we use certain words. Especially when you are christian talking to non christians. Many non-christians have different ideas of what we are on about.
Also I think it's good for us to think about these issues, so that when someone challenges or talks to us, we can think about it and return logical and well reasoned responses.
Anyway nuff of my fluff :) Cheers for listening.
thanks for your forum and thoughts Bek ;)
I liked your comment Greg about the whole other gods thing.
My stance on the whole issue is that God was perfect, was sinless and that is where the heart of salvation lies.
I dont believe that having feelings or emotions is a flaw. I agree with Sarah when she says
"The more I think about Jesus, the more grateful I am that he isn't some remote God but a God who has walked in human flesh and can identify with our pain. Yet, unlike us, he didn't sin"
Pete, you keep swaying between your words. First you say you dont believe Jesus sinned, but then you say...
"It wouldn't be that inspirational to me that he hadn't sinned because if God had made me perfect I wouldn't sin either!"
Isnt that saying he sinned?
Sorry, just need a little clarification. :)
Sin causes a break in relationship with God. If Jesus sinned, he couldnt have been in the relationship he was with God. You mentioned...
"...but for example how could God forsake Jesus if Jesus were fully God?"
I believe that this was the time when there was a break in relationship between God and Jesus and this is why God turned away.
I hope this is coming out right, but do you get my drift?
I've heard two differing opinions about God forsaking Jesus. One is that God really did forsake Jesus and the other is that he didn't, but to Jesus it felt like he did.
Jesus became sin for us, he bore our sins in his body and God cannot stand the sight of sin.
BTW, thanks for the congrats Dodgy Pete ;)
Dictionary meaning of perfect:
complete, entire; faultless, excellent; exact
Is this what you mean Dodgy Pete?
B-b-b-but....which of these is NOT true of Jesus? Was he incomplete? Was he not faultless? Was he not excellent?
I suggest we have a look at Colossians 1:15-20.
"He is the image of the invisible God". I take that to be an exact representation. "exact" was one of the words from the dictionary definition above.
"For by him all things were created". Go back to Genesis. Do you see Jesus? Nope. But he was the Creator. Hmmm...interesting. I reckon that means that he is fully God, to refer to Sarah's earlier comment.
The way I understand it, the difference between Jesus and all the things we normally associate with God is that he voluntarily chose to not use some of his attributes, in order to become like us. There are places where he shows that he doesn't have Omniscience (knowing all things) in the Gospels. He is never Omnipresent (all places at one time). He gets hungry and he gets tired...etc... Those aren't attributes of God.
However, I think the best understanding is to believe that he voluntarily "took off the handles" to those attributes in order to be like us while he walked this earth. That gives me great confidence in walking the path I walk. He walked it in the power of the Holy Spirit and in subjection to scripture and that is how I have to do it as well!
Hi guys, good comments.
Firstly Bek,
Pete, you keep swaying between your words. First you say you dont believe Jesus sinned, but then you say...
"It wouldn't be that inspirational to me that he hadn't sinned because if God had made me perfect I wouldn't sin either!"
Isnt that saying he sinned?
If Jesus was wholey perfect (flawless) and fully God he could not have possibly sinned and not even be tempted. James 1:13 says
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted by God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man"
I agree with Greg that Jesus put aside some of his divine "abilities" when he came to earth as flesh. He didn't use his own Godly power to perform miracles but relied on asking his father in heaven, just like we have to.
This is what I find inspirational. Jesus subjected himself to our imperfect existence, he made himself imperfect, and still he made the right decisions and remained sinless.
I wasn't trying to say that Jesus sinned, but that I find it inspirational that he did not inspite of lowering himself to our imperfect existence.
Apologies, I'm not that flash at explaining myself :)
Greg, I agree with you pretty much all the way...
The way I understand it, the difference between Jesus and all the things we normally associate with God is that he voluntarily chose to not use some of his attributes, in order to become like us. There are places where he shows that he doesn't have Omniscience (knowing all things) in the Gospels. He is never Omnipresent (all places at one time). He gets hungry and he gets tired...etc... Those aren't attributes of God.
However doesn't this mean that Jesus was incomplete? He separated himself from certain aspects of his Godliness, and even from God himself for his stint here on Earth.
Thanks for that pete. Was just getting a little confused!! :)
I dont think he was incomplete. Its really hard to explain and fully understand the whole fully God fully man thing. But I dont think he was incomplete in any area.
This is from my dad...
"...the best verses to use are: Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9. The first one talks about the fact that "all the fulness" dwells in Jesus and the second verse explains what the "fulness" is; ie.it is the "fulness of deity" and the verse also says that it exists in Jesus in "bodily form" (obviously His humanity).
Colossians was written to defend
the fact that Jesus WAS more than just a man - He was also fully God.
Thanks bek (and your dad), good verses.
hehehe Thanks Rob! I was reading Colossians this week, and thought about the "all the fullness of the Godhead" passage this morning, but didn't want to be one of those who says, "The Bible says it and that is IT!" :-D But..."the Bible says it and..."
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